Author Topic: Engine Remaping  (Read 17021 times)

WarthogARJ

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Engine Remaping
« on: September 16, 2013, 02:27:50 PM »
Guys and Gals,
I have an HP2 Enduro 2006.
I added an Akropovic full titanium exhaust after I robbed my bank when I first got the bike (2nd hand).
Is MUCH lighter, plus no catalytic converter, so the engine is potentially a bit more powerful due to less pressure drop.
I bought thru HPN, who had a hand in the HP2 design.
They say it DOES add more power, and doesn't need any engine re-mapping (see attached).
It does pop a bit on the decel, but have had it since early days, so am not sure how much this is normal on the HP2.

BMW also sells both the Akro muffler individually for the HP2, as well as the complete Akro system.
So it's not an unusual modification.

I now see some others say it's even better to remap your ECU to compensate, but I don't know much about this sort of thing.

Anyone have input on the best thing to do?
I believe I can:
- leave it as is (arguably I'd be safer with LESS power....:-}
- possibly adjust my existing setup without any extra chips etc: either thru the dealer or someone else
- go to a specialist with a dyno who can then remap my ECU (I think they all add a chip).
MaxBMW in the USA does this, as do a few guys in the UK, plus others in continental Europe
- buy a system from someone like Wunderlich or DynaTune that adds a chip, plus allows you to tune via various "maps", or even "on the fly" by adjusting some settings
- other more dubious sounding ways, including adding a mystery module (that seems to be just a 20k resistor) from a company that sounds like it also sells "Snake Oil" and Hair Regrower...:-}

I read claims that with an engine remap/controller I can adjust to my style of riding, as well as my air filter and exhaust system.
And possibly use even lower octane fuel if forced to (rides in Africa etc).
And yes, even regrow my hair...:-0

This is perhaps not directly related to the GS-911, except that the real time sensor potential gives you outputs you can use to tune your bike, if you add the Wunderlich or Dynatune system.

This Forum has some experienced people on it, and maybe others have gone this route?
Thanks,
Alan Jarvis

StephanT

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Re: Engine Remaping
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2013, 10:42:15 AM »
Guys and Gals,
I have an HP2 Enduro 2006.
I added an Akropovic full titanium exhaust after I robbed my bank when I first got the bike (2nd hand).
Is MUCH lighter, plus no catalytic converter, so the engine is potentially a bit more powerful due to less pressure drop.
I bought thru HPN, who had a hand in the HP2 design.
They say it DOES add more power, and doesn't need any engine re-mapping (see attached).
It does pop a bit on the decel, but have had it since early days, so am not sure how much this is normal on the HP2.
do us a favor and do some realtime log if you can, on the Lambda voltages... in general, if you are backfiring on decel, chances are that you are running lean... and lean is hotter..., and lean is possible, since you've taken out most of the restrictions that are normally found in the stock exhaust... (hence more air)

I now see some others say it's even better to remap your ECU to compensate, but I don't know much about this sort of thing.
It generally is... have a look at what we did with a G450X when they just came out:
 http://www.hexcode.co.za/products/gs-911/evaluating-the-g450x-with-leovince-x3-and-powercommander-v
and then
 http://www.hexcode.co.za/products/gs-911/evaluating-the-g450x-with-full-akrapovic-system-and-powercommander-v

Anyone have input on the best thing to do?
I believe I can:
- leave it as is (arguably I'd be safer with LESS power....:-}
- possibly adjust my existing setup without any extra chips etc: either thru the dealer or someone else
- go to a specialist with a dyno who can then remap my ECU (I think they all add a chip).
MaxBMW in the USA does this, as do a few guys in the UK, plus others in continental Europe
- buy a system from someone like Wunderlich or DynaTune that adds a chip, plus allows you to tune via various "maps", or even "on the fly" by adjusting some settings
- other more dubious sounding ways, including adding a mystery module (that seems to be just a 20k resistor) from a company that sounds like it also sells "Snake Oil" and Hair Regrower...:-}
I'm not a big fan of the snake-oil solution...
Do you have links for the other solutions so we can read what they claim to be doing...?

I read claims that with an engine remap/controller I can adjust to my style of riding, as well as my air filter and exhaust system.
And possibly use even lower octane fuel if forced to (rides in Africa etc).
probably only if you remap it everytime for which ever situation you want... By just remapping (and not adding anything else), I can't see how they can optimize supreme power on the one hand and low octane performance on the other hand... ( a wideband lambda would be handy here)


This is perhaps not directly related to the GS-911, except that the real time sensor potential gives you outputs you can use to tune your bike, if you add the Wunderlich or Dynatune system.
Any specific links to these?

best,
Stephan

bikecrazy5

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Re: Engine Remaping
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2013, 12:07:03 AM »
hi
i agree with Stephan.first check your real time values as it definitely sounds like you running lean. IF you decide on going the for a remap i would go for the power commander v as i have worked with it before and have seen the results.but that's my 5 cents

Haakon

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Re: Engine Remaping
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2013, 12:22:02 AM »
I "think" this is what he refer to:
I guess he think of the powercommander products?
The company have changed its name several times.

http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/powercommanders.aspx?mk=2&mdl=78&yr=2009&pc=12-010&mk-n=BMW&mdl-n=HP2&pc-ver=PCV&add-mdlyrid=12-010&add-mdlyrid2=12-010&fullstr=12-010&prod-type=Powercommander V

Started by Mark Dobeck- firm sold and now he have this  firm:
 
http://www.techlusion.com/

(I am sure you (Stephan) remember the "Fuelnanny" that partly solved the surging issues of early F650GS models)
----------
Wunderlich:
http://www.wunderlich.de/shop/catalogsearch/result/?q=tuning
-------------------
MY personal opinion:
Most modern bikes are so finely tuned that small alternations like a new exhaust do not improve performance much. You may get more bottom end power, more high end power but not both.
The advanced ECU`s will most often adapt to alterations and the bike will be back to "normal".
No harm and little gain in overall power.
A redesigned intake system, exhaust AND/or  new cams will do it- with new ECU mapping.
A new map (or chip) is a must... add on electronics will not be able to override the OEM ECU.
(The OEM ECU is adaptive and will, over time, supress most ad ons.)
I THINK the "Powercommander" come with a new, wide range, Lambda. (not for all models)
That will make a difference!
Is it worth the price??
Smiles, from a stupid Haakon 
 
 


2000 F650-GS

WarthogARJ

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Re: Engine Remaping
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2013, 02:59:27 PM »
Hi guys,
EXCELLENT Feedback: thanks.
I'll use the GS-911 to check the real time values and see if my popping/backfiring can be sorted out.

My terminology is not correct: I used "remapping" as an overall term, when I should have said "improved" or "optimized".

What HillTop Motorcycles say they do is add an interactive routing into the BMS K module that adjusts the engine management using the sensors: lambda and airbox sensors. I've seen good feedback from the work on the forums and from other posts. And my local BMW dealer service manager says he has sent bikes there, and noticed improvements in performance and fuel economy.
I'll dig up the various forum links that comment on it.
The HillTop site does not say that much: Geoff said it to me on the phone.

The main comment is that the bike is set up for average conditions, and to comply with emission requirements in various countries. That might not be the best for your own use.

Akro exhaust: HPN says that adding this full exhaust improves te power and torque curve: I attached the dyno curve from them on an HP2 Enduro. They helped design the HP2, so I would believe them. They also say you do not NEED to do any remapping.

I'll report back with more details.
Thanks!
Alan
P.S. The "snake oil" comment was about a device called the PowerFrk that was discussed on some forums.
http://www.powerfrkusa.net/
And I call it "snake oil" because someone opened one up and says that all it was was a resistor: nothing more complex.
I can post those comments if you want.
It seemed a bit dodgy to me.
But who knows, maybe it's a excellent product.


WarthogARJ

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Re: Engine Remaping
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2013, 03:24:13 PM »
I hadn't seen the reports on the PowerCommander and various exhausts: they are very interesting.

But to clarify something, as far as I can see, if my sensors are working correctly and if adding a different exhaust has indeed made me run leaner and hotter, and perhaps pop/backfire, I cannot do anything about it with my existing set-up. It's not like a carburetor bike where you can adjust mixtures or timing yourself: it's all done by the BMS K, via a "map". Correct?

So if I change that map, it stays like that unless I change it again.

If I add a PowerCommander I have some flexibility.
But I need a dyno to really fiddle properly: but the GS-911 helps because of its real-time potential.
Correct?

And the option I'm looking at from HillTop, by changing the BMS-K firmware to a more interactive system (that "learns") is in between these things.
I've been told that it really DOES work.
And I can go back.
So I guess if I do it and then decide I want to go further and add a PowerCommander I can.
Correct?

WarthogARJ

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Re: Engine Remaping
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2013, 03:28:49 PM »
Here's the reply to my post on the GS Forum:
http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthread.php?t=350407

And some feedback:
http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthread.php?t=348990&highlight=HillTop
http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthread.php?t=301959&highlight=HillTop
http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255076
http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthread.php?t=350419&highlight=HillTop

HillTop says:
I asked all the above questions today, and was told.. it should improve mpg as the engine will be more efficiently through the rev range.

OK, this refers to 4 wheels, but it's the same...

So why should I remap my ECU?

When vehicles are distributed throughout the world, manufacturers adopt a one map fits all policy. This one map has to take into account many different factors that are necessary for each export country. Areas such as climate, emissions, fuel quality etc all have to be considered by the manufacturer. What this means is that a vehicle ECU is never optimised for one individual situation.

So how can remapping help

They will actually read your own engine's map file, modify it and then upload it back to the ECU. The company should always take the time to find out your own individual requirements and what you want to achieve from a remap. They will then tailor the map to suit before it is uploaded back to the ECU. By remapping your ECU it is easily possible to release extra power and torque from your engine without any reliability issues. Many owners also report that they have seen improved fuel economy once their engine has been remapped (chipped). Be aware that although many customers experience improved fuel economy, this depends on your own driving style and how heavy your right foot is.

The increase in power and torque that is gained using ECU remapping provides a much smoother drive, with increased flexibility throughout the rev range, allowing for smoother acceleration and better overtaking.

By remapping a normally aspirated engine ECU, you would normally expect to see a 10 - 15% increase in power (bhp) depending on your exact engine specification, and around a 15 - 20% increase in torque (Nm) throughout the rev range. This improves engine response on a lighter throttle.

You will notice an improvement in power and torque right throughout the rev range, along with the possibility of improved fuel economy.

I was concerned regarding the warranty, but even if the bike is "plugged in" at a dealers, they can't tell the ECU has been remapped, it won't show up on their diagnostic equipment.

He offered me 2 "tweaks", the one that will smooth the engine out, which will get rid of the sluggishness (not so much on the twin cam engine) or the "GLF" (Go like F**K) which will give much better torque and throttle response throughout the rev range

StephanT

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Re: Engine Remaping
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2013, 03:13:22 PM »
my opinion (and only MY opinion):

If it is done individually, i.e. your bike on a dyno, then I think you could find some dramatic improvements.

If it is a generic map (improved map, but still for a model range), then the improvements and gains will be less dramatic...

best,
Stephan

WarthogARJ

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Re: Engine Remaping
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2013, 04:05:21 PM »
Thanks.

Well from my understanding of it, it's not a remap.
He replaces the entire firmware with his own routines/software.
And it does the engine management interactively.
He says it "self learns".
Uses the input from the sensors.
So it's not just a map that goes into the existing BMW firmware.

I said I was surprised that the processor capacity is enough to do that.
And he says the file is not so big and there is the capacity.

He has done 100 or more BMW's, as well as other bikes.
Including professional racing bikers I'm told (I don't know the names: is not a sport I follow).

WarthogARJ

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Re: Engine Remaping
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2013, 08:01:06 PM »
Well, I'm not zigakly sure WHAT gets done at HillTop.
Speaking to Geoff from HillTop on the phone he said they replace the entire firmware in the module.
There's an interesting link here to a guy who had his R1200RT bike done: http://www.ebbo.org/remapping.php

So it says that the existing BMW fuel map is backed-up then deleted, and replaced by 5 fuel maps.
Your bike selects one of them depending on which speed and throttle you are using.

The increase in power was from a measured 86 to 98 bhp.
I understand that the overall numbers are somewhat relative (atmospheric pressure, humidity etc), and vary from day to day, and dyno to dyno.
So the important thing to note is the relative increase: about 14%.
Torque increased by 16%.

And the owner says it is much smoother.

Anyways, I plan to go there quite soon.

Haakon

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Re: Engine Remaping
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2013, 01:33:45 AM »
In reply to WarthogARJ  :)
That is a huge gain in max power indeed.
I was wrong in my earlier posting- when I said a map modification (and exhaust) never could do "much".
I mentioned new valvetiming and other drastic modifications.
I WAS WRONG and admit so  ;)
---------------
I had forgotten the history of my 2000 model F650GS.
When new my bike did not meet the Californan polution values.
It did raise its front wheel without even trying :-)
BMW tried to make it California legal and modified the map, they did not even ask- it was done at one of the free servicesl
We had all sorts of problems- they came with a new map, less problems but stll not axceptable!
Stalling and erratic running.
Last they came with the present map, it included a swap of injector too.
Bike running ok but it was way less responsive at low revs (no more front wheel lift unless you try HARD)
Leaner running, higher mpg- but a "lazy" engine.
My and others solution was to remap back to the first (poluting) map- and old injector.
BMW could NOT do that- probably because of legislations.

I know some owners of the 2 cylinder F800 bikes are experimenting with aother injector (and original map) with good results.
Haakon
     
2000 F650-GS

marki_gsa

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Re: Engine Remaping
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2013, 08:43:29 PM »
If they replace the firmware I would bet on the diagnostic knowing therefore any engine and engine management warranty will be null. That said I am suspicious that this is the case. Re-writing firmware would be a massive job especially when it has to still talk to the rest of the bike. Replacing the map is far more likely and much easier to do.

There is typically a lot of snake oil talked about when it comes to ecu tuning, in fact tunning in general. Most of it comes from the guys that are actually doing it to add to the mystique.

WarthogARJ

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Re: Engine Remaping
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2013, 09:10:22 PM »
Hi Marki,
Well, I'm not really sure now what they do.
I was also a bit dubious about replacing the firmware.
I spoke to the guy who does it and claims he DOES replace the firmware.
I then asked him if there was actually enough memory to add anything more complex and he said yes.
And he does say he adds five maps instead of the existing one.
So that's definitely more than just a simple "re-mapping".

As far as warranty is concerned, nobody who owns an HP2 Enduro has any warranty left: at least I don't.
They made the last one in 2008.
I do my own maintenance: after having completely stripped it to the engine I'm not that worried about having to re-flash the firmware back to original if need be.

I know of quite a few other BMW owners, as well as other bikes who have had it done by these guys.
The local BMW service manager swears by them: says it makes a big difference.
I've seen the dyno-maps of before and after and there is a difference.

So I'm not so concerned about that now: I know it does make an improvement.
But I am definitely going to ask him about this "re-write" story.
I think he's just assumed I'm a normal rider who doesn't understand what's involved and is simplifying matters.
Thanks for your comment on this: good point.

Max at MaxBMW in the USA who has a lot of HP2 experience (he runs three big BMW dealerships and races HP2's) does a similar type thing of swapping out the map: I trust him and he says it makes a major difference.
He doesn't add any extra hardware.
I didn't ask him if he adds more than one map: I will.

The other option is getting an external processor like the Power Commander and optimizing things that way.
There are some case studies on this site showing the advantages of that.

Thanks for your comments.

Alan

« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 10:38:13 PM by WarthogARJ »

Haakon

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Re: Engine Remaping
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2013, 10:00:19 PM »
The EPROM on my on (again) my old F650 is a Am29F040B chip.
512Mb only- The ECU will not accept the chip unless its all written to.
The map itself is only half that, give and take some.
Yes, my bike is extremely stone age but the only map do have- guessing: 8 to 12 different "under" maps.
No Lambda, no engine temp info, no intake temp, no barometric pressure, no TPS and so on- and all sorts of combinations.
------------
I am SURE the modern bikes have more than enough memory to store several main maps.
What I do not understand: How to change between the main maps?
If no additional hardvare is installed.
The "Power Commander" and other systems I understand- there you use software (or dipswitches) but then you install new hardware.
(New ECU..)
Haakon
 
 
2000 F650-GS

StephanT

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Re: Engine Remaping
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2013, 10:31:27 AM »
I think it is a matter of misinterpretation, or misunderstanding...

I don't know of anyone who currently flashes the BMSK through the diagnostic port. They all do it by opening the ECU and reprogramming the whole flash with a BDM...

that means the whole flash is written... hence the "Whole flash is replaced"... but that does not mean the whole flash is new...

there will/could/should be a Copyright issue... but i don't want to go into that now...

best,
Stephan