Author Topic: R1200RT Instrument Cluster Blank  (Read 18631 times)

mike d

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R1200RT Instrument Cluster Blank
« on: August 19, 2015, 01:42:13 PM »
The following is from a friend who has just bought a 2005 R1200RT. Initially all was o.k. with the instrument cluster.The only thing that has changed since it ran last is both wheels are off for new tyres,
the front forks are off for overhaul so the front ABS sensor is just dangling in mid air.

Went to start the bike today (05 R1200RT), turned the key but nothing on the display. None of the handlebar controls work (indicators horn etc) but bizarrely she started fine but still nothing showing on the display.
 Disconnected the battery and left it for an hour, came back and tried again. The display lights up briefly with trip information and then goes out when the battery is connected, turn the ignition key on and still no display.
But now I am getting nothing at all - not even a backlight on the LCD is coming on.

It also sounds different when you turn the key, the ABS pump isn't cycling as normal but the throttle body idle control valves are cycling and resetting.

I don't have a clue where to start looking for a fault. I am assuming the CanBus is detecting a problem somewhere and is isolating that circuit. Could it be the ABS pump ? Phil can you help out here with your wealth of
knowledge on the CanBus system ?I am concerned that the ABS pump isn't running through it's normal checks either. Getting a bit concerned that the ZFE unit has failed, unfortunately the label has no details on it like I have seen on other units for sale - so matching it is going to be difficult :-(
The fuel gauge is part of the LCD display and the whole thing just remains blank, even the back lights for the speedo and rev counter are not coming on

The following is the GS-911 fault readout:
Fault Codes Report
GS-911 version: 1503.2 Datapack version: 2.0 Serial Number: GS60135011 Registered to: The BMW Club Ltd
Date: 18/08/2015 Time: 19:24:42
________________________________________
BMS-K

Motorcycle VIN: WB10368045ZM******

10218: CAN-bus Timeout: no communication with KOMBI (Instrument Cluster) control unit
The fault is currently present.
This problem occurred once.
Logistic counter: 40
Symptom: No signal or value.
MIL set: No


10219: CAN-bus Timeout: no communication with ZFE (Central Vehicle Electronics) control unit
The fault is currently present.
This problem occurred once.
Logistic counter: 40
Symptom: No signal or value.
MIL set: No

I also tried to run the output tests and cluster tests - no response from the instrument cluster at all. So does that mean that the ZFE is not sending an output or is the GS911 talking directly to the instrument cluster ?

I have confirmed there is power to the instrument cluster and a good earth. I have no idea how to test if there is traffic on the canbus cables though.

Any ideas?

Thanks in anticipation

Mike (On behalf of Graham)


WayneC

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Re: R1200RT Instrument Cluster Blank
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2015, 04:42:09 AM »
Well it is pretty clear the Dash is not talking to CAN-BUS so look at the connections to start with

What we have found with other dash assemblies is they run at 5v internally and the voltage regulator inside has aggressive over current protection and will shut down a dash. The fact you are saying it initially displays and then goes blank reminds me of a voltage regulator shut down due a short or even just dirt and crud build up on the circuit board
« Last Edit: August 20, 2015, 04:49:27 AM by WayneC »

Jughead

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Re: R1200RT Instrument Cluster Blank
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2015, 08:13:26 AM »
Check and clean the 2 small micro switches for the ignition.  I had this recently on an R1200GSA.  Motor ran but nothing else works. 

The switch can be accessed by removing the ring antenna cover.  Unclip the cable from the underside and remove the 2 small screws holding it in place.  Pull the entire switch unit out and open it up carefully.  By bet is that it will be full of corrosion.

Will post some pics.

Jughead

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Re: R1200RT Instrument Cluster Blank
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2015, 08:33:22 AM »
Ok, here you go.

Once you have removed the unit, this is what you will have:



Carefully pop off the cover...



And flip it over.  You will see the 2 microswitches.



Turn it around and you will most likely see this area corroded.


mike d

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Re: R1200RT Instrument Cluster Blank
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2015, 10:45:16 AM »
Hi WayneC and Jughead,

Thanks for the suggestions, I will pass them on, much appreciated.

This morning he will be looking at the ignition switch end, having continuity checked all the cabling between the modules.

Will let you know how it progresses.

Mike


mike d

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Re: R1200RT Instrument Cluster Blank
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2015, 02:10:26 PM »
As promised here is the latest update:

1. Well it is pretty clear the Dash is not talking to CAN-BUS so look at the connections to start with

Connections are all fine. There may be two separate ECUs in the Kombi because the GS911 confirms comms with Kombi H/L (I am assuming this is the headlight and not Hi / Lo ? But the main engine ECU reports no response from the Kombi (no H/L mentioned)


What we have found with other dash assemblies is they run at 5v internally and the voltage regulator inside has aggressive over current protection and will shut down a dash. The fact you are saying it initially displays and then goes blank reminds me of a voltage regulator shut down due a short or even just dirt and crud build up on the circuit board.

 It initially displays when you first connect a fresh battery - it has always done this and another RT owner has confirmed this is normal. Also by holding in the right hand button on the dash I get the mileage display and I can change the clock setting - but nothing else displays. So I assume this is a stand alone circuit which doesn't rely on the canbus or the ECU



Well I am back to square one and thoroughly fed up.

I've used a high wattage bulb (21w) to put a good load on the system with my Fluke Avo across the load. No significant volt drop was seen at any point.

I have confirmed permanent 12vdc and switched 12vdc at all relevant parts of the circuit.

I have run full continuity tests on the twisted pair wiring at every point in the circuit including between the lo and hi cables which shows the 120 ohm resistance I would expect to see.

I still can't work out why the ABS pump is not completing its normal wizzy self check when the ignition is turned on. The GS911 speaks to the ABS with no issues and if you disconnect the main cable to the ABS, the GS911 detects it and reports a comms error as expected. The main engine ECU also then reports a comms failure with the ABS until you reconnect the cable - so all appears well here. The only connection I can see from the ZFE to the ABS is the canbus twisted pair so I can only assume that the ZFE instructs the ABS to commence its self checks. If I had access to another 2005 model RT I could run a few tests but alas I don't.

Now on to the ZFE itself. GS911 can not get any response from this unit at all. No ECU info, no faults codes - nothing. The main engine ECU also reports that it can not get a response from it. I did check the output from pin 22 of the ZFE to pin 5 the instrument cluster and it was 11.97v - that seemed an odd value so I connected my test bulb across the circuit and a expected the voltage dropped to 60mV. Turn the ignition off and this disappears to 0v. Again 60mV seems a very odd value - but without knowing what it is being used for it is fairly pointless speculating.

On the RT there are only two wires involved with the ignition switch and as I have proved there is a reliable 12vdc supply to and from it, I'm not sure taking it apart will solve anything. The bike starts and runs fine which it wouldn't do if there was an ignition voltage issue.

I simply can't afford the cost of a new ZFE (particularly when at this stage we cant say with any certainty that is what is wrong) and Balderston BMW's service manager was totally disinterested when I went in to investigate them coding a second hand ZFE for me. I have to say I found his approach very disappointing I was clearly taking up too much of his time, but it seems to be common in major bike dealerships these days unless you're buying the latest machine from them.

So the bottom line is unless I find an affordable solution the bike will be broken for spares which is a crying shame. I am so totally fed up.

WayneC

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Re: R1200RT Instrument Cluster Blank
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2015, 03:30:56 PM »
While I am not too familiar with the 1200GS, the comms etc is what I do for crust

First look at the wiring diagram and look at how the diags is wired. Is the GS911 communicating direct to each ECU on K-Line connections and are there 2 diags buses which I suspect there is. If so that would explain why GS911 communicates with Dash/ABS/BMS

Secondly unless I am going mad, the CAN H/L is merely indicating both legs are connected

Re dash internal operation, I repair 650GS dashes and assist others to do so, when I first looked into them I was quite surprised that there were dedicated dash processors used by the manufacturers, they actually do all the functions including keeping time and multiplexing the displays, quite an eye opener so on what you have now indicated it sounds like the basic processor system is fine but perhaps a question over the CAN interface

Be careful using globes round some of the systems, they dont all work from 12v, some can be 5v so globes used to be good test tools but now not so good

Jughead is the man with the real 1200 knowledge so let us see what he suggests, the master may teach us a trick or  2  ;D
« Last Edit: August 20, 2015, 03:32:56 PM by WayneC »

WayneC

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Re: R1200RT Instrument Cluster Blank
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2015, 04:11:59 PM »
I took a quick peek at a wiring diagram and it is dual K-Line so GS911 talks to BMSK and ABS directly on separate lines, I am uncertain re comms path to dash but it would seem both ABS and BMSK should be able to see it via CAN

Jughead

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Re: R1200RT Instrument Cluster Blank
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2015, 04:18:32 PM »
...
Jughead is the man with the real 1200 knowledge so let us see what he suggests, the master may teach us a trick or  2  ;D

 ;D  I'm one of those jack of all trades, but master of none!

I have had a number of the RT and GS bikes with dead or "slow" clusters.  On those with the "slow" cluster, the cluster remains dead to maybe 2 or 3 minutes, then suddenly wakes up.

On all of them I have found it to be corrosion in the micro switches as posted above.  The only cluster I have ever replaced is one that got filled with water after someone had a go at it with a high pressure cleaner.

Sorry I can't be of more help on this one.

WayneC

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Re: R1200RT Instrument Cluster Blank
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2015, 04:36:20 PM »
Ah well, we are all beginners in something or other, me particularly  ;D

It does sound to me a device is interrupting CAN BUS and ZFE seems a good target, all the ECU's connect to it Dash/BMSK/ABS/ZFE/DWA

What I am unclear about is which device is the gateway to the dash, I have always believed the BMSK was the gateway but I wonder if GS911 can check going through other devices as a diagnostic, only Hexcode could answer that question

I would be tempted to write down each function which was working/not working in a 2 column list to see if that identified the culprit, I would also be tempted to disconnect one device at a time and see if that opened up comms to the dash

schuppi

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Re: R1200RT Instrument Cluster Blank
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2015, 05:54:20 PM »
Hi all, hello Wayne.
You're right. On R1200 04-13, BMS-K is the gateway. All ECU's are on the same lines and when one is sending it's informations, all others are on reception.
So, if one of this modules in this network is out of order, all remaining do the best to work.
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mike d

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Re: R1200RT Instrument Cluster Blank
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2015, 08:24:47 PM »
Thanks for the update guys.

While I thing it is still something simple like corrosion, he has sourced and bought a ZFE from ebay.

There was a posting on the ADVrider forum, whereby a chap had sourced a ZFE which was from a different model to the bike he was working on. He connected it up and while it worked there were faults registered. These seemed to be more to do with the different donor model configurations than anything else.

Is it therefore reasonable to expect a ZFE from the same model, with similar accessories, to be able to be fitted without the need for a re-code?

Just found out that the ZFE is from the same year and model bike (but it had ESA, which Graham's doesn't).

Schuppi, i'll pass your information on, thanks.

Mike
« Last Edit: August 20, 2015, 08:39:45 PM by mike d »

Greyscout

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Re: R1200RT Instrument Cluster Blank
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2015, 01:38:00 AM »
Hey all - I am the guy with the half dead R12RT - firstly thankyou all for taking the time to try and help me work this out.

Jughead with your knowledge of the 1200RT instrument cluster - there is a cable that goes from pin 22 on the ZFE to pin 5 on the cluster which I reckon is a switched supply and I think the switching is caused by the ZFE getting an input on pin 26 from the main ignition switch. Do you know if the input to the cluste at pin 5 is a 12v supply ? Pins 1 & 2 are canbus, pin 3 permanent 12v and pin 4 ground. If I know it is supposed to be a 12v dc switched supply then I could link pins 3 and 5 to see if that causes the cluster to display again. Obviously I don't want to do this is if the input to pin 5 is say only 5vdc (although I think this unlikely).


I don't believe the cluster is faulty because when I ask the GS911 to do an instrument ECU check it reports back with no errors (see below).


However, When I ask it to complete the cluster and output tests - no errors are generated but the display remains lifeless. I have had the display apart, there is no evidence there has ever been any water ingress to the case and the pins are bright and clean.

My thoughts are that the ZFE is not switching on or has an internal issue and is not sending an output on pin 22 to tell the cluster to switch on and thereby display, but the permanent live to the cluster still allows the canbus to request the ECU info.

When I ask the GS911 to check the ZFE it reports there is no response, this again leads me to suspect that it is not switching on.


The GS911 also interrogates the ABS with no issues, but if I deliberately remove the supply to the ABS at pin 10 then the GS911 returns the same fault message I see with the ZFE. So this again points to a ZFE fault.

Now the other thing that's puzzling me is when you turn the ignition on the ABS should run through its normal self check - which it is not doing. According to the wiring diagram there is no link between the ABS and the ZFE apart from the canbus. The ABS also has a switched ignition supply which is shared with the ZFE. That's why I looked into the ignition switch this afternoon and checked out the wiring to all three locations and found no issues. It all seemed to make sense apart from the fact that the same ignition supply starts the bike - which it does with no issues, but I checked out all the cabling anyway.


Is it possible that the ABS waits for a command from the canbus to tell it to complete its self checks ?


mike d

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Re: R1200RT Instrument Cluster Blank
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2015, 10:41:45 AM »
Hi Greyscout,

Welcome to the  GS-911 forum.

Hopefully the guys will chip in again to get the RT sorted.

Mike

schuppi

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Re: R1200RT Instrument Cluster Blank
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2015, 11:09:20 AM »
Hello all,

I think that this wire on connector 5 (instrument cluster) is the wake-up line.
Measuring a 5V level will be possible, but have not to be permanent. It will be mensurable
with a oscilloscope.
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