GS-911 User Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: stardust_59 on September 07, 2018, 02:30:09 AM

Title: F650 GS R13 / 2000 / GS911 - BMS-C: reset adaptations for TPS / IAC not working
Post by: stardust_59 on September 07, 2018, 02:30:09 AM
I have got a question:
Using a yellow GS911 Blu -
I tried to reset adaptations for TPS / IAC since I cleaned the throttle body and the IAC.

The engine was run and temperatures logged were around 100 deg Celsius engine temp, fan turning on.

Keeping the engine running I tried to reset adaptations and received an error message that conditions are not met or sequence of commands is incorrect.

Next step.
Turn engine off.

Reconnect GS911, restart GS 911 software (PC) , check engine temp and then go to reset adaptations menu and try reset adaptation again.

Again the same error message appears.

All other comms with ABS and BMS work ok
ABS bleed works so the service functions are intact.

What am I doing wrong ?
 
Title: Re: F650 GS R13 / 2000 / GS911 - BMS-C: reset adaptations for TPS / IAC not working
Post by: WayneC on September 08, 2018, 03:09:42 AM
After cleaning the throttle body & with the engine cold the GS911 should have been connected & adaptions reset, then the engine started without throttle & allowed to idle until the fan kicked in to rebuild adaptions across the temperature range

I would assume, but you dont mention, that you cleaned the Idle Actuator & the airways in the throttle body associated with it

Why you would attempt an adaption reset with the engine already running and up to operating temperature is a mystery to me
Title: F650 GS R13 / 2000 / GS911 - BMS-C: reset adaptations for TPS / IAC not working
Post by: stardust_59 on September 12, 2018, 12:34:46 AM
Wayne thanks , got it.

Forgot to mention:
SW version GS-911 V1807.2

I went over the procedure again with the engine cold.
Ignition on, Kill switch in position 'ON' and gear in neutral.

Same result.

I noted then on the lower right : VIGN = 0,0 V.

Normally VIGN is about the same as VBATT.

Well, stupid me.
The sidestand was down.

I will have to check again with the sidestand up.
Title: F650 GS R13 / 2000 / GS911 - BMS-C: reset adaptations for TPS / IAC not working
Post by: stardust_59 on September 12, 2018, 11:06:32 PM
Short update:

tried with sidestand up.
Adaptation Error remains.
VIGN = 0.0V
For a short moment VIGN was 0.01V. Not sure if this has somethig to say.
Would suspect wiring problem.

Started with sidestand up, first gear, clutch pulled.
Engine fires up.

Will check sidestand wiring.
Looked for chafing at (+) battery terminal. - Negative. All ok. No trace of chafing.

Possibly Igition switch ?


Bike never saw BMW shop, likely not to recall (main harness chafing issue at Shock Adjuster bracket)


Checked:
Ignition off fault

http://forum.hexcode.co.za/forum/index.php/topic,1033.msg4856.html#msg4856


Any possibility Dashboard involved ?

Other ideas ?
TIA
Jan
Title: Re: F650 GS R13 / 2000 / GS911 - BMS-C: reset adaptations for TPS / IAC not working
Post by: WayneC on September 13, 2018, 03:23:04 AM
It does sound like you have a problem with the wiring/side stand switch, why you would put the bike into first gear & pull the clutch in to start is beyond me though, surely you would simply put side stand up and the bike into neutral, I am assuming you have a the bike up on the centre stand

With the 650GS there is no Ignition On signal extended to the diagnostics socket, it is 3 wire only hence you have to click past the warning re ignition on. Clearly the ignition switch is not a problem or you would not have been able to start the bike at all

Re dash, there is no diagnostics comms to the dash on the 650GS & it plays no part in whether the bike starts, that is all handled by the BMSC & the starter lockout circuits which remove power from the BMSC by depowering the Motronic relay
Title: Re: F650 GS R13 / 2000 / GS911 - BMS-C: reset adaptations for TPS / IAC not working
Post by: stardust_59 on September 13, 2018, 01:13:52 PM
I did the start with sidestand up and in gear, with clutch pulled as I suspected a similar interlock 'mechansim' as on the classic F650 and other bikes.
Indeed either of these conditions - sidestand down , or in gear (without clutch pulled) will prevent starting.

The bike is on the center stand, yes.

As I can see from thw wiring diagram, the Propstand switch is connected to K9110 (Motronic relay) and S9092 (Neutral safety switch) and S9091 (Clutch Safety Switch)

S9092 (Neutral safety switch) and S9091 (Clutch Safety Switch) are conneted via diode V9400 and to the propstand switch via X9380 and X9428.
Thus this setup looks pretty much like on the F650 E169 (Funduro)


I also remember , when working on the F650 CS that VIGN shows close to VBATT  if the sidestand is up.

I did the ECU tests and was also able (as a test) to recalibrate the Lambda Sensor. So these items are functional.

It is only the adaptation that fails and I suspect VIGn=0 to be the reason.

All other functionality of the Engine , starting, idling etc is normal.

The reason I want to to the adaptation is that I note a very slow response of the IAC after revving the engine (to about 2000 rpm) and then releasing the throttle to idle.

The return to idle rpm is delayed and I can see in the live values that the IAC stepper shows a slow response.
It is not the throttle cable.
It moves freely and does not catch anywhere - there is enough play for the throttle to mechanically return to idle position (at the small adjuster screw)


I do have a log file of this behavior.

I will check the wiring and functionality of the prop stand, but I suspect something else to be responsible for the VIGN = 0.0V
If - VIGN = 0.0V is one of the error conditions that prevent adaptation.

Then what are the conditions to be met to perform the adaptation ?

Title: Re: F650 GS R13 / 2000 / GS911 - BMS-C: reset adaptations for TPS / IAC not working
Post by: WayneC on September 13, 2018, 01:51:50 PM
Forget chasing Vign, you are wasting time on something which is not relevant & in terms of the BMW diagrams there are errors in the published diagrams which will lead you astray in some areas, there is some additional info on line http://www.f650gs.crossroadz.com.au/ElectricalRepairs.html

Do a reset of all adaptions then rebuild the adaptions as per the process I indicated in a post above

If you cant diagnose/start with the bike in neutral & ignition on, info on the starter lockouts is on the pages below
http://www.f650gs.crossroadz.com.au/DiodeRepair.html & http://www.f650gs.crossroadz.com.au/StarterCctRepair.html
Title: Re: F650 GS R13 / 2000 / GS911 - BMS-C: reset adaptations for TPS / IAC not working
Post by: stardust_59 on September 13, 2018, 04:37:43 PM
Wayne, thanks again for your advice.

To reiterate:

Everything works on the F650 GS
ECU - no fault codes
All ECU tests and individual actuator tests (IAC, Injector,Fuel pump, Fan) are ok. Pass. They work.
ABS no fault codes.
ABS Full bleed performed due to brake fluid change.
Brake pressure points stable.

Bike starts runs and idles stable.

All Fuses show continuity.
Dash seems ok too.
Init sequence (light show ABS, Coolant lamps) on Dash is ok as well.
Speedo works.

The only thing I cannot do is to do the adaptation reset.
Bike on main stand.  Engine cold. Sidestand up. Gear in neutral. Kill switch ON. Ignition ON.

Error: conditions not met or false sequence of commands.

Perhaps GS911 SW v1807.2 ?

Might try an older version !?

I am chasing a phantom...
Title: Re: F650 GS R13 / 2000 / GS911 - BMS-C: reset adaptations for TPS / IAC not working
Post by: WayneC on September 14, 2018, 05:59:53 AM
I did some quick tests on both single spark & dual spark BMSC using 1807.2 & I am unable to replicate the problem you are encountering, I am using a GS911 WiFi & USB connection which is the only real difference so I would discount 1807.2 being the issue, I even generated some fault codes to see if each of the resets failed, but they cleared the adaptions & of course the PC App gave a warning re the faults

Beyond this issue, with the dash assembly if you see any strange behaviour like ODO digits flashing when ignition is turned on dont muck about, have the 5v power rail electrolytic capacitor replaced, it will save you some grief
Title: Re: F650 GS R13 / 2000 / GS911 - BMS-C: reset adaptations for TPS / IAC not working
Post by: stardust_59 on September 15, 2018, 01:00:54 AM
Wayne thanks again for having a look into the glass bowl.
I hooked up with hexcode support and sent them the GS911 logs.

No answer on said conditions or command sequence though.
They may want to keep their trade secret, which I understand.

Bike has 40k km and stood in a barn for quite a while.
I'll have a look at the wiring again and the dash will be disassembled - just to get a status on corrosion and possible vibration damage.
Dash operates ok, no flicker on the lcd display.
clock on when ignition off.
total km when ignition on.
stepper reset routine after disconnecting and reconnecting ok.
 

Let us see what hexcode has to say.

I followup with the solution if there is one of general interest.

Thanks again
jan

Title: Re: F650 GS R13 / 2000 / GS911 - BMS-C: reset adaptations for TPS / IAC not working
Post by: Nicol Carstens on September 17, 2018, 10:52:21 AM
Dear Jan & Wayne

Wayne thanks again for having a look into the glass bowl.
I hooked up with hexcode support and sent them the GS911 logs.

@Wayne, as always: big thanks for flying the flag and helping out. Apologies for the silence. I have been spending time in another trench!

@Jan: thanks for the call. Apologies for overlooking this thread. I am going to have a look at your logs and see what I can find. Hang in there please! PM you soon.

Best

Nicol
Title: Re: F650 GS R13 / 2000 / GS911 - BMS-C: reset adaptations for TPS / IAC not working
Post by: Nicol Carstens on September 17, 2018, 02:51:15 PM
Hi Wayne

Why you would attempt an adaption reset with the engine already running and up to operating temperature is a mystery to me

Jan might have followed the instructions in the Hex manual? From the PC App:

"Resetting of all adaptation values (TPS zero position, lambda controller, idle regulator):

Note: In order for the BMS-C to relearn the throttle valve zero position, it is essential that the
throttle cable is correctly adjusted. Make sure that the throttle valve rests against the
mechanical stop when in the idle position, with the handlebar turned to full lock in both the left
and right position.

Note: To relearn the idle controller value, the cold engine must be started and allowed to idle until
it reaches operating temperature, approximately 80 degC (or until the fan starts up)"

:)

Nicol
Title: Re: F650 GS R13 / 2000 / GS911 - BMS-C: reset adaptations for TPS / IAC not working
Post by: Nicol Carstens on September 18, 2018, 02:35:37 PM
Update for those that might be curious:
Keep you posted. Any words-of-wisdom from past experience as always invited.

Nicol
Title: Re: F650 GS R13 / 2000 / GS911 - BMS-C: reset adaptations for TPS / IAC not working
Post by: WayneC on September 19, 2018, 03:47:08 AM
Jan

As a matter of interest what firmware version is in the BMSC ?, can you post the info from the autoscan or Nicol do you have it in the log ?
Title: Re: F650 GS R13 / 2000 / GS911 - BMS-C: reset adaptations for TPS / IAC not working
Post by: Nicol Carstens on September 19, 2018, 12:40:40 PM
Hi Wayne and Jan,

I have conducted more testing using our own 2001 F650GS. It was out of town. Returned yesterday. It should be a very close match to the one Jan owns. I used the same PC App and GS911 yellow device. Our bike reads:

As a matter of interest what firmware version is in the BMSC ?, can you post the info from the autoscan or Nicol do you have it in the log?

I actually don't have an autoscan in hand for Jan's bike, but I constructed one from the logs. It looks like the firmware on the BMS-C in our F650GS here at Hex is 8000, while the one that Jan owns is at firmware version 5001. Do you think ECU firmware could be a problem?

I performed extensive adaptation reset testing on our bike. Nothing out of place.

Regards

Nicol
Title: Re: F650 GS R13 / 2000 / GS911 - BMS-C: reset adaptations for TPS / IAC not working
Post by: WayneC on September 19, 2018, 01:29:12 PM
I actually don't have an autoscan in hand for Jan's bike, but I constructed one from the logs. It looks like the firmware on the BMS-C in our F650GS here at Hex is 8000, while the one that Jan owns is at firmware version 5001. Do you think ECU firmware could be a problem?

Ah Jan has the original firmware version much treasured by some, it makes the 650GS rock & roll but is not actually EU compliant & should not ever have been released to market, it was the reason for the mad scramble to update all in the field & resulted in the infamous surging & stalling problems of the 6000 & 7000 firmware releases, the 8000 series is the latest & most stable but a little more sedate, FYI 5000 series is RON 95 fuel only

5000 series firmware has a lower Diagnostic Index of 02 rather than the 04 of the 8000 Series so perhaps it is a factor, unfortunately I dont have a 5000 series BMSC here to do any testing to confirm if it is a factor in the issue
Title: Re: F650 GS R13 / 2000 / GS911 - BMS-C: reset adaptations for TPS / IAC not working
Post by: Nicol Carstens on September 19, 2018, 02:10:18 PM
Wayne,

Ah Jan has the original firmware version much treasured by some, it makes the 650GS rock & roll but is not actually EU compliant & should not ever have been released to market, it was the reason for the mad scramble to update all in the field & resulted in the infamous surging & stalling problems of the 6000 & 7000 firmware releases, the 8000 series is the latest & most stable but a little more sedate, FYI 5000 series is RON 95 fuel only

5000 series firmware has a lower Diagnostic Index of 02 rather than the 04 of the 8000 Series so perhaps it is a factor, unfortunately I dont have a 5000 series BMSC here to do any testing to confirm if it is a factor in the issue

You are a walking F650-encyclopedia! Your wealth of knowledge is indeed incredible! Yes, I can confirm: Jan's bike is on diagnostic index 2.

I don't have a 5000 available either. I could try and ask the team to see if you can see if someone has uploaded data/logs from a 5000, but that would not be an easy thing to do. Sounds like a firmware upgrade wouldn't be a bad idea?

With thanks,

Nicol
Title: Re: F650 GS R13 / 2000 / GS911 - BMS-C: reset adaptations for TPS / IAC not working
Post by: WayneC on September 19, 2018, 02:49:36 PM
Wayne,

You are a walking F650-encyclopedia! Your wealth of knowledge is indeed incredible! Yes, I can confirm: Jan's bike is on diagnostic index 2.

I don't have a 5000 available either. I could try and ask the team to see if you can see if someone has uploaded data/logs from a 5000, but that would not be an easy thing to do. Sounds like a firmware upgrade wouldn't be a bad idea?

With thanks,

Nicol

Ask Stephan about Haakon, he is the reason I became involved and he put together much of the knowledge I then built on & have on line

If I was Jan I would file the 5000 Series BMSC on the shelf for now & buy a replacement on line, program it up to 8000 series for every day use, the 5000 series would be good for those silly days when burning fuel is the fun  ;D
Title: Re: F650 GS R13 / 2000 / GS911 - BMS-C: reset adaptations for TPS / IAC not working
Post by: Nicol Carstens on September 19, 2018, 03:13:50 PM
Wayne,

Ask Stephan about Haakon, he is the reason I became involved and he put together much of the knowledge I then built on & have online

If I was Jan I would file the 5000 Series BMSC on the shelf for now & buy a replacement online, program it up to 8000 series for everyday use, the 5000 series would be good for those silly days when burning fuel is the fun  ;D

Roger that! Will do. Thanks again. (Just had a look at your info on the F650 dash PCB level repairs: nice work!!)

Warm regards,

Nicol
Title: Re: F650 GS R13 / 2000 / GS911 - BMS-C: reset adaptations for TPS / IAC not working
Post by: stardust_59 on September 19, 2018, 09:09:51 PM
Gents, Nico, Wayne -
I am currently on a business trip and was muted by very long working days.
Indeed - I actually have two of these BMS -
one on the shelf (not mine yet but owner cannot do stupid things with it)

And the one of the current bike.
here is the version info from the Autoscan:

BMS-C
ECU Id (VIN):   vvvvvvv
Part No.:   07658860
HW Version:   C2
Diagnosis Index:   2
Software version:   5001
Manufacturing Date:   1400-04-10
HWOE No.:   25399630
Manufacturer:   Hella GmbH
Data release:   50003611
VIN:   xyz
VIN model year:   2000

I dug through my logs (both Tablet and Android)....

Yessss... Got it.

And another one, as above.

The third box :

Part # 07668133
HW Version: c2
Manufacturing date 2000-05-03
Program release 8000
Date release 80003601


I will surely try to get a hold of the other box (owner willing to sell).


So - two SW v5001 boxes - one on the bike I am debugging - one on the shelf.
Another F650 (engine trashed due to incorrect valve adjustment attempt) with a BMS - SW 8000.

BMW flashed the newer SW and messed up the VIN on that bike, as it was a third party (ebay) . They did not change the VIN.
BMW told my buddy all kinds of stories . which is why the SW5001 BMS is now shelved.

Gentlemen, the treasure hunt is on.

Tally Ho ! :-)

Jan
Title: Re: F650 GS R13 / 2000 / GS911 - BMS-C: reset adaptations for TPS / IAC not working
Post by: stardust_59 on September 19, 2018, 09:27:11 PM
@Wayne
- I can only second Nicol and express Kudos for confirming my suspicion.

I read about the early SW version but I did not have the SW version numbers at hand.

Indeed the SW8000 produces a pretty docile Rotax sweing machine - having nothing of the zippiness of the carburetted Rotax in the Funduro.

Thus I hope my conclusion is correct:
SW5001 BMS + new injector = Fun

Hope I am not too far off.

I would not really care abut a bit more fuel consumption, really.

Once I can get my hands on the of unit I suggest to discuss the rest in private.

cheers
Jan
Title: Re: F650 GS R13 / 2000 / GS911 - BMS-C: reset adaptations for TPS / IAC not working
Post by: WayneC on September 20, 2018, 05:22:07 AM
Jan

8000 3601 is EU, RON 95 & new injector

Part No 07658860 - 5000 3611 is EU, RON 95 & old injector

We have Haakon to thank for taking a pic of the old Moditec Dealer System screen when he first purchased his GS & was with the Dealer tech in the workshop, it had a table setting out the firmware versions/injectors for all of the single spark production, FYI the 5000 Series only went out to EU markets in the first batch of production, BMW then realised their error, there are a few here in Oz as we get EU spec machines

I am a little surprised re the Mfr Date of 1400-04-10, it is usually correct, is that a typo ?

Re a BMW updating the firmware to the 8000 series & messing up the VIN, I assume a Dealer not BMW AG ?, having a different VIN will not affect operation but it should have been easy for the Dealer to change the VIN to suit the bike, cant imagine what silly stories they would have tried telling, BMW have put incorrect/invalid VIN's in some bikes during production, we have a dual spark in that boat here in Sydney, GS911 picks up the incorrect character in the VIN the Dealer system does not hence it was never corrected to match the compliance plate on the frame

Re running 5000 series & a new injector, Haakon did try but encountered problems, he realised later he had failed to do an adaption reset/rebuild & unfortunately he did not have the opportunity to try again
Title: Re: F650 GS R13 / 2000 / GS911 - BMS-C: reset adaptations for TPS / IAC not working
Post by: stardust_59 on September 24, 2018, 11:36:07 PM
Wayne,
thanks so much for the insight.
I was on tour over the weekend.
Tonight I swapped the SW5000 series BMS against a SW8000 series BMS (said BMS with incorrect VIN).

Voila - adaptation reset worked like a charm.

Also the strange behavior of the sluggish return to idle (with idle being too high) caused by the IAC has disappeared.
A new injector is underway and will be installed this weekend.

As for incorrect VIN:
Indeed this was BMW in Stuttgart Vaihingen (not a dealership but a BMW company outfit). So not a garage bricoleur.

Pending final adaptation to the new installed injector and test ride this resolves the maintenance issues for the owner of the F650 R13.

Yet I think it might be worth to have a closer look at the BMS with SW ver 5000: Data release:   50003611

Left to note that

Manufacturing Date:   1400-04-10

is not a typo.

It is as reported by the unit.
Maybe a silly programming errror in the SW 5000.

I also noted the following:
the SW8000 series BMS seems to add start functionality.
That is - when warm , just press the starter button and the engine will rev up shortly just as one would do when starting a carburetted engine. (A wee bit of throttle).

Did notice this when using the SW5000 BMS

I will get in touch with hexcode and we will see what to do with the SW5000 box. Might be some interesting forensics....

regards
Jan
Title: Re: F650 GS R13 / 2000 / GS911 - BMS-C: reset adaptations for TPS / IAC not working
Post by: Nicol Carstens on September 25, 2018, 09:01:16 AM
Dear Jan and Wayne,

It has been a pleasure doing business with you guys :) Very happy to read all of the happy news! To many more F650 miles!! I'm tempted to get myself one (again) after all of this. Did around 55,000km on my F650GS Dakar before she came to an unfortunate sudden stop. Never to fly again.

@Jan: Will be in touch about that 5000 software driven unit...

@Wayne: With thanks to yourself and Haakon!

Safe riding,

Nicol
Title: Re: F650 GS R13 / 2000 / GS911 - BMS-C: reset adaptations for TPS / IAC not working
Post by: Nicol Carstens on September 25, 2018, 09:03:03 AM
Left to note that

Manufacturing Date:   1400-04-10

is not a typo. It is as reported by the unit.

PS: Yes, I also noted that. And from the logs it would appear that is really what the controller is sending...