Author Topic: 2009 R1200GS Surging Terribly After Throttle Body Sync  (Read 15446 times)

higgins.andrew.r

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2009 R1200GS Surging Terribly After Throttle Body Sync
« on: November 13, 2016, 01:23:35 AM »
I'm having a surging issue after a throttle body synchronization on a 2009 R1200GS. Initially, the idle was fluctuating from 1000 to 1400 RPM. It was time for regular 6Kmi service so I performed a throttle body sync using a twin max after adjusting the valves - TDC was correct at time of adjustment. I adjusted the right side cable (the correct side to adjust) and the left side cable (the wrong side to adjust) because the idle was not dropping from 1400 RPM. I wasn't aware that the bike would automatically adjust the idle speed.Not sure how to gauge the slack, is it just the gap between the 2 throttle cable nuts on both sides?

Soon afterwards, surging became evident.

I bought a GS 911. Since owning the GS 911, I've reset the idle actuators, checked all live function test of the bike (all fine), performed a GS 911 throttle body sync (multiple times), and reset adaptations.

Surges terribly between 2,000 and 5,000 RPM at all speeds. The RPM in all gears will rev up to 6,000 or so before "catching up" it feels with the fuel delivery. Takes so long to move from a stop.

I'm a bit at a loss when my Additive Trim Bank 2 (Left hand cylinder?) is reading +3,000%. Does this indicate some major vacuum leak and the computer is trying to send a ton of fuel to compensate for all the air? I wasn't getting that same reading 2 months ago. I have a stripped valve cover bolt on the Bank 2, but never had an issue with oil leakage. I'm wondering if that could really be bad enough to suck that much air into the system.

Also, not sure what to make of the O2 sensor readings dead lining.

The attached excel workbook, god willing you all can open it, shows a few dates where I ran the bike and collected the data.

Jughead

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Re: 2009 R1200GS Surging Terribly After Throttle Body Sync
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2016, 07:53:18 AM »
Hi Andrew

You say the surging started after a throttle body synchronization.  Was it DIRECTLY after the sync or did it come on gradually?

Note: ALWAYS do an Adapation Reset after a sync.

There are a few things you can look at, and no, the stripped valve cover screw will not introduce air into the system or have any effect whatsoever, beside possibly leaking a little oil.

1.  Did you tamper with the idle stop screws at all?  Those are the small screws under the plastic caps.

2.  Are the idle actuators correctly plugged in?

3.  The freeplay on the throttle cables.  No, it is not "just the gap between the 2 throttle cable nuts on both sides".  It is the distance that you can move the cable casing up and down without the cable core moving the butterfly.

4.  Do you possibly have a crack in the rubber intake manifold?

5.  This statement concerns me: "The RPM in all gears will rev up to 6,000 or so before "catching up" it feels with the fuel delivery."  The way that is worded makes it sound as though the clutch is slipping, which is an entirely different issue.

6.  Lambda voltage 2 is not correct.  It would not appear that the sensor itself is faulty, just that the mixture control is having a problem of some kind and cannot get the mixture right.

So, here is what I would do.

1.  Check the battery terminals and make sure they are clean and firmly connected.

2.  Check Sparkplug condition as well as all 4 stick coils.  If you have a mate with a similar bike, borrow the good stick coils in order to eliminate those.

3.  Run and Autoscan and ensure that there are no errors.

4.  Correct the freeplay in the cables.  I would in fact screw the cables in all the way so that there is no way that they can interfere at this point.  In other words, you will have a LOT of slack in the cables.  We will correct this later.

5.  Connect the Twinmax, start the motor and see what the readings are.  Remember that on the R1200, there is nothing you can adjust at idle!  That is what the idle actuators, working in conjunction with the Lambda sensors, are for.  If the idle is rough and won't stabilize, and the lambda sensors are not bouncing up and down, stop and go back to the basics.

6.  While the motor is running, spray some Quick Start or similar product (even spray deodorant will work) around the intake manifold/throttle body joint.  If there is a significant change in engine pitch, idle speed or roughness, you have an air leak.  Do not even attempt anything further until that is sorted.

7.  Check valve clearances.  Make sure they are all exactly correct.  Also make sure there is not an old feeler gauge stuck in there.  May sound strange but I have found those on 2 occasions where the previous technician forgot to remove them after the adjustment.

8.  Remove and thoroughly clean the idle actuators and the bores they fit into.  Use some Carb Cleaner for this.  Just remove the rubber O-ring first as the Carb Cleaner will chew it up.  Do not try to activate them outside of the throttle body and they will fall apart.

9.  Refit and start the motor and get readings from Twinmax.  If the readings are still way out, and idle still rough, do a compression check and a leakdown test.  Leakdown test will tell you if you have a leaking valve or simlar problem.

10.  If all is well and idle is smooth, you can now sync the throttle bodies.   First adjust the LHS cable casing to have about 2mm slack.  Fire up the GS911 software and use the Syncronize function.  Then using the throttle, bring the revs up to about 3000 rpm and check the twinmax.  (It help to have a healthy fan on the motor at this point to create some airflow)  Adjust the RHS cable to give you a balanced reading on the Twinmax.

11.  Once done with the sync, once again reset adaptation and all should be well.

Hope this helps.

higgins.andrew.r

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Re: 2009 R1200GS Surging Terribly After Throttle Body Sync
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2016, 06:13:17 AM »
Thank you so much for your thoroughness. I think this thread will serve as a great guide for many others down the road.

To answer your questions:
The surging came on gradually and never seemed to change regardless of all the throttle body adjustments and GS911 actuator resets. It's primarily an issue at idle and I believe I may have a lead thanks to your guidance on line 2 part 1.

I do not recall turning the idle stop screws as I understand these are set from the factory.

I do not see any cracks in the intake manifold.

You know, the day after I posted this I was coming up the slope of my parking garage and couldn't muster the power to get out! So yes, you got the major issue identified in line 5 part 1. I've owned a few bikes in my life, but never held onto one long enough to see the clutch go out. The slipping feeling (engine continuing to rev up with the clutch released) was new to me, and at only 28,000 miles I never expected it to go bad so soon. I suppose city driving and perhaps my clutch play needs to be taken into consideration.

Clutch:
The other day I pulled the clutch out and I got nothing but carbon dust. The clutch feels like a paper wafer, and from what I can see - the pressure plate and housing cover have some moisture burned onto them.
I assume this is from oil spitting in from the main front seal behind the clutch housing? Not sure yet. I'm having a guy at work drill some holes in an iron bar so I can bolt it to the housing cover to stabilize it in order to remove the bolts.
I brought the clutch parts, as seen in the photo, to the local BMW motorcycle shop to see what parts they'd consider putting back on the bike. They said they always replace the pressure plate, clutch plate, and housing cover along with the seals every time. That wasn't convincing to me, but I also don't have experience with reassembling a bike after replacing the clutch to realize I should've replaced everything. I was hoping to get your take on the condition of my pressure plate and housing cover abrasive regions. After thinking about it, I'm planning on replacing both regardless, but to have confirmation that they're toast would put me at ease.

Idle Actuators:
As pictured, you can see the left idle actuator plug casing has broken off and the connection is a bit loose of course. This part appears to clip on and off and should be an easy replacement (if only I could find the part). It's not listed in the BMW parts catalogue and an individual buy. This will be something I test thoroughly when everything is reassembled.

I will most definitely refer back to your guidance in part 2 once everything is put back together and I can focus on the cylinders.

Thanks again for your time and consideration.

Jughead

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Re: 2009 R1200GS Surging Terribly After Throttle Body Sync
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2016, 10:28:42 AM »
Having had a look at the photos, I would most certainly replace the pressure plate and housing of that clutch.  It is badly burned, with many blue (high) spots which would indicate those areas to be VERY hard, which would in turn create uneven wear on the clutch plate.  Looking at it with a magnifying glass you will most likely see lots of small cracks in the cast iron, similar to those in the pic below.

WRT the badly running motor, I must emphasize the importance of clean and well connected battery terminals!  Also a battery in good condition.  I have had a number of bikes that run VERY erratically, idle rough, lack power, and stall every time the throttle is closed.  Most have been due to a bad battery or bad connections on the terminals.

WRT the idle actuator plug, the part number you are looking for is "83 30 0 402 340".  This is a repair plug and can be purchased from BMW.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 10:35:26 AM by Jughead »

higgins.andrew.r

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Re: 2009 R1200GS Surging Terribly After Throttle Body Sync
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2016, 05:30:06 AM »
Thank you for the clutch analysis and idle actuator part number.
I'll look into a new battery as my current one has about 3 years on it. I was having an issue last winter where it'd make an initial attempt to crank, pause for about 1 second, then crank successfully. I cleaned the positive starter and battery terminals and had some degree of success.

How do those spots appear on the clutch plate? As mentioned, the casing was only full of carbon powder. There was no moisture that I could see. I'm also a bit skeptical of replacing the shaft/rear main seal and counterbalance seals as they don't appear to have any issues. I purchased the crankshaft seal 11 11 8 551 418    SHAFT SEAL - 65X83X8 and the counterbalance seal 10    11 11 7 721 848    SHAFT SEAL - 25X37X6,5
but not sure if I should tamper with something that doesn't appear broken / something I don't have the tools for at the moment. Would you have an idea as to what the lifespan of the 2 shaft seals is? I'd hate to miss the opportunity to replace them, but I'm not sure I want to risk the process of drilling screws into the seals for the removal, and then failing in some small way to seat them just right. It's pretty difficult to find a great tutorial on removal and installation, and from what I've noticed repROM only shows the rear main seal removal as part of splitting the engine in two.

Jughead

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Re: 2009 R1200GS Surging Terribly After Throttle Body Sync
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2016, 07:08:15 AM »
The blue spots are created by the slipping clutch, the friction of which creates extreme heat.  this ends up actually "heat treating" the metal, the process in this case hardening the metal.  As the entire unit is not being baked in an oven or forge, it is not possible to get a uniform temperature throughout the entire area of the housing or pressure plate.  The irregular heat pattern is what leave the irregular "hardness pattern" (for want of a better description) on the metal.

This chart can tell you roughly what temperature was reached on the various areas of the metal.



I normally leave the crankshaft seals alone.  I have only ever had 1 bike with a leaking crank seal so they are not problematic.  You need special tools to fit the seal anyway and I would not attempt the job without these.

The balancer shaft seal however I would replace.  They have a tendency to leak, especially if the bike stands for long periods.  The subsequent oil that leaks out usually gets flicked around and ends up in the clutch, causing it to slip, which puts you back to square 1.

This is not a difficult replacement.  Just unbolt the balancer weight, pull it out, pull the seal using the process you mentioned, and refit the new seal, pushing it in to be flush with the outer motor casing.  You cannot really get it wrong as there is a bearing just behind the seal and the worst you could do is push the seal a mm too far and get it against the bearing, which is not really an issue either.  Replace the balancer weight (it can only go on one way) and re-torque the bolt.

On the gearbox, check the input shaft (the one on the front of the box) for play, which would indicate a buggered bearing.  Also the seal on that side of the shaft.  Gearbox oil could also leak out onto the clutch via that seal.

Then check the rear seal of that shaft, where the clutch slave cylinder is attached.  It is a very small seal and they often leak.  Oil gets trapped in that area and then travels along the clutch actuating shaft and also ends up on the clutch.

I usually cut a small groove in the casing below the clutch slave cylinder to drain any oil in the area and prevent it travelling forward to the clutch.  Do it while the gearbox is out, like so:

higgins.andrew.r

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Re: 2009 R1200GS Surging Terribly After Throttle Body Sync
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2016, 02:28:49 PM »
Finally got some parts in yesterday. I spent the whole night getting as far as I could. Clutch replacement is easy enough. I took your word on the counter balance seal which was also very simple. All it takes to remove it is a screwdriver prying at the seal with a piece of wood or another screwdriver as a fulcrum.There were two tricky parts to putting the bike back together after detaching the rear frame. 1) setting the transmission back into the engine, and 2) putting the frame back on the bike. The transmission was difficult to set into the engine mounts. The top left mount would be perfect and aligned with the clutch, but the bottom right would be a few mm up or down and visa versa. I realized it's much easier to slowly and evenly take turns screwing each fastener in little by little and continuing this until everything set in. Getting the final drive splines connected was the hardest part the putting the frame back on. The trick there was to take the rear wheel off and try again. splines connected on the first thrust without the wheel. Can't really do it with the wheel on unless you have a hoist.

So I was hoping to have everything done this evening, but I'm wondering if my clutch slave cylinder (output cylinder clutch on Max BMW) is bad. I'm not seeing any apparent leakage, but the center hole where the push rod sits wobbles / rocks around about 2mm in every direction. I was wondering if that's in the design of slave cylinders or if this one needs to be replaced. I don't recall a wobble in the past. The slave cylinder feels a bit tight / getting resistance when I try to reinstall it. Theres about a 1/2 inch gap to close before it seats onto the transmission and I'm not trying to force it on. If the wobble is ok, then perhaps I might need to bleed the slave cylinder a little as to reduce the resistance. Any thoughts appreciated. 

Jughead

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Re: 2009 R1200GS Surging Terribly After Throttle Body Sync
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2016, 08:07:33 PM »
There were two tricky parts to putting the bike back together after detaching the rear frame. 1) setting the transmission back into the engine ...

I use 2 long bolts (about 200mm) with the heads cut off.  These i turn into the 2 upper bolt holes in the motor.  The gearbox is then hooked onto these bolts and slid forward.  Then just a matter of selecting 6th gear and turning the output shaft to get the input shaft splines to line up.  Once they are lined up, the gearbox slides home, the middle bolts inserted and the upper headless "guide bolts" removed and the actual bolts fitted.

... and putting the frame back on the bike.

I never entirely detach the rear frame, but rather loosen it and pivot it upward on the upper mounting bolts.

Getting the final drive splines connected was the hardest part the putting the frame back on. The trick there was to take the rear wheel off and try again.

Correct,  the wheel needs to be removed.

So I was hoping to have everything done this evening, but I'm wondering if my clutch slave cylinder (output cylinder clutch on Max BMW) is bad. I'm not seeing any apparent leakage, but the center hole where the push rod sits wobbles / rocks around about 2mm in every direction. I was wondering if that's in the design of slave cylinders or if this one needs to be replaced. I don't recall a wobble in the past. The slave cylinder feels a bit tight / getting resistance when I try to reinstall it. Theres about a 1/2 inch gap to close before it seats onto the transmission and I'm not trying to force it on. If the wobble is ok, then perhaps I might need to bleed the slave cylinder a little as to reduce the resistance. Any thoughts appreciated. 

No, all is good with the slave cylinder.  If no leakage is apparent, just put it back on.  The resistance is normal.  There is a spring behind the piston.  This will be pushed back as you are fitting it.  Just incrementally tighten the 2 bolts until the slave cylinder is all the way home


higgins.andrew.r

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Re: 2009 R1200GS Surging Terribly After Throttle Body Sync
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2016, 05:44:30 PM »
I'll be sure to keep an eye out for a couple 200mm bolts. Another tricky thing, I thought, was estimating the placement of the clutch plate splines when sandwiched between the clutch housing plates - as to receive the transmission splined shaft. Kind of like docking a space shuttle to a space station. I just eyeballed it and tried to get an equal radius of clutch around the clutch shaft hole. I'll definitely consider the frame pivot move next time.

So I put everything back together last weekend and was mostly amazed by the higher quality sleep I was getting when it was all said and done.
I followed your throttle body sync instructions and I can hardly feel it running at 4K RPM. Very smooth.
The only issue I found was that my rear brake pedal went to the floor after riding around the block a few times. I could see leakage coming from the metallic brake line port at the ABS block under the tank. I had to take the tank off and make sure the threads were properly fit and all is good now. I get an occasional toxic burning oak smell still, but definitely not as frequently. I'm not well accustomed to different burning smells. I know WD-40 smells a little sweeter. I just can't tell what I'm smelling is either remnants of oil somewhere or the clutch. Maybe its brake fluid from the previous ABS block leak.