GS-911 and ezCAN User Forum
General Category => Technical => GS-911 => Engine related issues => Topic started by: Onions on August 05, 2015, 03:28:20 AM
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I'm a newbie just got my unit - worked fine on the K1200, but the R1150GS (Not running) the unit cannot even talk to the ECU.
So for the experienced users should I check other issues before I get a new ECU?
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Hello,
difficult without having the VIN, because of different wirings.
But to give some directions:
First, is ABS reachable?
After starting GS911 look to the right lower display for terminal "30" > VBAT and "15" > VIGN. That should be min. 12,5 V.
If not, look for fuses F5 F6 > 10A
Ground connection upper side gearbox and of course the battery connections.
That's my first aid :)
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Thanks for your response.
VIN: WB10415A1YZE12995
No ABS on this model (optional).
Fuel Pump is working - bench tested.
Pulled injectors and turned ignition - no fuel coming from injectors. Has spark at both plugs.
Pull hall sensor connection and insulation on wires cracked and peel off easily - so starting to suspect hall sensor.
Very confused.
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"hall sensor connection and insulation on wires cracked and peel off easily"
You're right, but anyway you must have connection to ECU with GS911 8)
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Wolfgang.
It doesn't see the ECU - that's what confuses me.
Any Ideas - is it the ECU also?????
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" is it the ECU also?"
Hello,
by my experience, NO 8)
What's about the electrical wiring? Did you checked it? no display for electrical power on GS911?
What's about start elimination, switches for zero gear, side stand, engine kill, emergency off?
Fuel pump starts up by switching on ignition for a few seconds. When engine is running, hall sensor signal is fitting to ECU, pump
runs permanent.
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Remove the front plastic cover from the motor.
Turn on the ignition.
Using a spanner (wrench) on the alternator pulley bolt, slowly rotate the motor one full revolution in the normal direction of rotation. Listen for the fuel pump to prime. It should run for about 2-3 seconds.
If it does not run, your Hall sensor is faulty. The sensor plate has 2 sensors. One triggers the coils to fire the spark plugs, the other triggers the fuel pump.
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Wolfgang.
It doesn't see the ECU - that's what confuses me.
Any Ideas - is it the ECU also?????
Your diagnostic plug wiring may be dicky, preventing comms with the ECU. Check the wiring harness where it disappears below the battery bracket. You may find it is chaffed through and shorting to ground.
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Well fellows I am still lost.
Replaced the hall sensor (new) plugged in GS911. Still cannot see the ECU and suggests checking kill switch - so checked kill switch working fine.
Went to relay 8 Motronic Relay - works fine, check power at injector plug - nil. Power at relay yes.
So suspiciously looks like ECU has failed. Can these be tested out of the bike to ensure that it is faulty before I spend lots on a new one.
Checked plug wiring appears OK.
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From Wayne GS911
"OK, no worries, it is the old Motronic MA 2.4 on that model, not real familiar with the specifics on it but any of the GS911's should have no trouble seeing the module. Which GS911 model are you using ?
I would suggest using model/series menu then a basic module scan to see if it picks up any comms from the Motronic. After that I would look at the power to the actual Motronic at the socket to confirm it has power rather than at the injector. I would also check continuity of the wiring our to the diags socket before I considered replacement of the Motronic although I recall they are relatively low cost on EBay"
I have enth WiFi (Red One). Tried the basic scan still can't see it. I'll check Power at Motronic and Connector continuity and come back.
Thanks.
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No worries, I would like a $ for every time I forgot to check some basics on comms :D
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Wayne.
I'm old biker - don't like these computers too hard to pin down problem. Next bike ol Kawasaki 900. Simple Mukinis, electronic ignition and a kick start. I now have too Beemers K1200GT and the R1150GS love them but not when they don't go.
Anyhow. Checked Dia Plug - no earth except on 2 pins rest open circuit. Checked continuity of dia plug to Motronic all seem OK. Also check continuity to injects to Motronic also appear OK.
Have I forgotten anything???
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On that model the diags socket should have the following pins connected
Pin 01 - Brown/Black - Diags pin to Motronic
Pin 02 - Brown/Blue - Diags to ABS (only if fitted)
Pin 04 - Brown - Earth
Pin 06 - Red/Yellow - Unswitched Power (also known as KL30 or Bat+)
Pin 09 - Blue - Rectifier
Pin 10 - Yellow/Gray - Switched Power (also known as KL15 or Ign On)
For basic comms checks, it is pins 1, 4, 6 and 10 which are relevant and the GS911 is suggesting no power on pin 10
Check for voltage between pin 4 and pin 6 with ignition off to confirm that is in place
Check for voltage between pin 4 and pin 10 with ignition on to confirm that is in place
Plus check continuity of pin 1 back to the Motronic
Ah I am also old school but much prefer processor based systems, but I have worked with electronics and processors all my life ;D
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Wayne
Looking at Diag pin r they numbered L-R or R-L?
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Looking at Diag pin r they numbered L-R or R-L
It's OK I'm having a blonde moment doh.
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Looking at Diag pin r they numbered L-R or R-L
It's OK I'm having a blonde moment doh.
No worries, I have them all the time ;D
I have basic overview info re diags, dealer diags pin outs, how pins are numbered etc on my 650GS web site
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OK
For basic comms checks, it is pins 1, 4, 6 and 10 which are relevant and the GS911 is suggesting no power on pin 10
Check for voltage between pin 4 and pin 6 with ignition off to confirm that is in place ------------12.2V with ign On ---11.9V
Check for voltage between pin 4 and pin 10 with ignition on to confirm that is in place-----------0V
Plus check continuity of pin 1 back to the Motronic---------------0 ohm and 0V
Confirmed 4 Brown is earthed.
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There is the first problem, there is no power on pin 10 when ignition is on hence the warning from GS911
Check there is switched power to the Motronic on the socket to it when ignition is on, I dont have a diagram to check which pin it is
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So let me see if I have this right - pull plug of Motronic and turn ignition on then see if there is power to one of the plugs?
What if there is?
What if there isn't?
Probably won't get this done today.
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It may be a stupid suggestion, but check the sidestand switch. Is the bike on the centre stand with the sidestand retracted?
I have had some older bikes that will not comm or even start while on the sidestand.
Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
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First thing I did was pull the side stand plug so it's not connected. :'(
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Good thought Jughead, unplugging the side stand on a 2000 model 650GS is the equivalent of side stand down and there is then no earth return for the engine Motronic relay/ECU hence no power active to it. Suggest plugging the side stand back in and ensure it is up
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That'd be right - too smart for my own good - would I be better of shorting the terminals just in case the switch is dicky.
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We are all too smart for our own good at times ;D, suggest just plugging it back in first, I dont know that diagram so cant comment on shorting wires
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Well done it now talks to the ECU. I have a play tomorrow. Minister for Finance is up my ribs to do BBQ - Gotta Go Thanks very much for ur patience and help.
I let you know how I go.
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[emoji106] The giveaway was the fact that you had spark, a functional fuel pump, but no fuel at the injectors.
Sidestand circuit kills the motor by disabling the injectors. Will post a wiring diagram when I get a chance.
You will most likely find that if you hit the happy button now you will have a running bike.
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I have some pdf's which show wiring Colors/Pins/ECU Type for all the models up to 2014 if you want them Jughead
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That would be much appreciated.
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Here you go
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Wayne
Thanks again mate looks like it was the hall sensor.
Checked all connections - new sensor installed and bingo diag sees ECU - bloody thing even starts so I am going to see if I can go for a test ride.
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No worries, good to hear you are getting it all sorted, Jughead is the one who should be thanked, he shortened the test process I was leading you down
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Well the bad news is it ain't sorted. I'm even more confused now.
Started was running great got 100M down the road and just stopped dead. Came home made sure fuel in the bike, put GS911 on and tested saw the ECU 2 fault codes Hall Sensor. This is new so I know it can't be that. Turned bike off had a ponder turned bike back on and it can see the ECU but not retrieve the fault codes. Do u think it could be the side stand switch say got a bumped and failed - what is the best way to short it out so that is always on? Start there first I think.
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As I indicated previously I am not really familiar with the 1150 model but side stand switch issues could well be a factor, on the 650GS a wire loop can be made with 1/8" spade connectors to plug into the side stand switch connector to bypass it without damaging/modifying the wiring. Rather handy in the spares kit out on the road
The side stand switch configurations I have seen are 3 wire, one wire is earth and the earth is extended to one or the other of the 2 wires dependent on whether the stand is up or down. That means it is safe to simply join all 3 wires with the loop plug but I would suggest checking it is the same on your 1150 before trying it
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Yeah I will check with meter first - don't know what else it could be except switch or the Motronic. I know a BMW Twins Mech here but he is way to busy to even look at it and good BMW Mech are rare here so have to do it myself. He said he doubted that it would be the ECU as they rarely fail.
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I would tend to agree re the Motronic, the ECU's I am familiar with are very robust and a couple on my test bench should be dead from the treatment they received before I acquired them but they still perform properly
One odd fault we have seen in other models with diodes in the starter circuit lockouts is ultra sonic welding failing and glass encapsulated diodes cracking. In one infamous case here dealers could not resolve where the machine would start and then stop the diode connections would be OK when cold and then break connection when hot or subjected to vibration. It was a 50 cent repair with replacement diodes from an electronics store but a pain to track down
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The hall sensor errors are normal if the motor was not turned over or running during the read process. You can ignore them. That does however not mean that they are not faulty. Is the hall sensor you installed a new unit? Or is it 2nd hand?
These units often work fine while cold but fail as they warm up.
You need to determine if it is a spark issue or a fueling issue. One of them is missing. Could very well be a fuel pump if the bike has been standing for a while. Can you hear the pump prime when you turn the ignition on? Fuel pump is the same as the BMW 318i.
Check for corrosion on the mini relays. Relays 7 & 8 are critical. 7 is the fuel pump relay, 8 is Motronic relay. You can exchange the mini relays with one another in the same row, provided they are all the same colour. Incidentally, there are black and yellow relays (and some blue) on the later bikes. The functions are exactly the same, but I think the yellow ones have a higher current rating than the black ones. If you need to replace them, replace with the yellow ones (Part number: 61 36 6 902 041)
Check fuses 5 & 6. 5 is Motronic/Diag connector, 6 is fuel pump.
WRT the sidestand. My recommendation would be to unplug it and bridge it out. As you have discovered, it cannot just be unplugged. Here's a pic of how to bridge it out. Just use a crocodile clip test lead the short out these 2 pins. Or (if you feel like cutting into the harness, which I wouldn't recommend) splice the wiring behind the connector. Yes, Wayne, it is exactly the same as the 650.
(http://i58.tinypic.com/rciy4o.jpg)
Hope this all helps!
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Thanks mate done those things even had an auto electrician mate have look. So tomorrow going to attack the side stand switch and bridge it out as suggested.
The hall sensor is a new unit.
These units often work fine while cold but fail as they warm up.
You need to determine if it is a spark issue or a fueling issue. I will recheck tomorrow.
Could very well be a fuel pump if the bike has been standing for a while. No used regularly and I have pulled out cleaned and a new filter installed.
Can you hear the pump prime when you turn the ignition on? Yes can hear it when key is turned in addition bench tested and it is working.
Check for corrosion on the relays. Checked 8 all ok will check 7 tomorrow but don't think it is a problem as pump works when ignition is switched on.
You can exchange the relays with one another in the same row, provided they are all the same colour. Might try that.
If you need to replace them, replace with the yellow ones (Part number: 61 36 6 902 041) - OK
Check fuses 5 & 6. 5 is Motronic/Diag connector, 6 is fuel pump. Checked.
Thanks Jughead.
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[emoji106]
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Pull the injectors and crank the motor. Have a look if they are actually spraying a fuel mist.
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OK.
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Well the thing is driving me nuts.
I am going to replace all the relays - not that expensive and should eliminate any issues there - they are 15 yrs old.
Checked the side stand this morning - moving up and down circuit opens and closes but with a wobble it switchss so it is going to be eliminated totally.
Jughead based on ur pic advises re shorting the switch just to make sure I get it right. I am going to cut just above side stand switch and use spade connectors so what colour wires should be joined and what should be terminated to eliminate the side stand altogether - hust something else that can go wrong so it's going.
Wayne you mentioned diodes in the starter circuit - where are these diodes located in the alternator?????? Mate of mine is an auto electrician so I can get him to check. Trying to eliminate everything.
Once side stand is shorted will retest spark and injectors as per Jughead's recommendation.
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You should not need to cut any wiring to loop the wires, Jughead confirmed it is the same connector as the 650GS so get a couple of 1/8" spade connectors with a loop wire connecting them and push the connectors into the socket
The other models of that vintage have diodes in plastic covers with spade connectors each end plus more diodes in a "Diodei Relay" in the electrical box, the wiring diagram will show them if the starter lockout circuit is constructed that way
I would not have time to dig out a wiring diagram til after work today to confirm the use of diodes
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OK thanks mate - got 4 new relays will try and source some 1/8" spade connectors. I'll get this beggar yet.
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That is the spirit, as one who works with machines every day, I will not allow a machine to beat me ;D
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I'm about ready to get out the 357Mag though >:( >:( >:( >:(
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I'm about ready to get out the 357Mag though >:( >:( >:( >:(
Stop being so elusive! ;D
Out with it, NOW! What have you not got? Spark or fuel?
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Don't know yet.
Got the 4 new relays in and haven't been able to get any spades small enough to make the link cable for the side stand switch so will have to take the smallest ones I got this arvo and squeeze them down to fit. Once sorted will do the spark and fuel test and come back to you. :P
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Jughead.
Ur probably still in bed lucky sod. It's 930 here.
Ran side stand loop, 4 new relays ignition on - no spark.
Took side stand loop out - ignition on again - no spark.
Didn't check fuel as I would say it is geeting through - I can smell it.
I goota attend to some other matters so by the time I get back u should be up and about. FARK.
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Also whatever it is appears to drain battery very quickly - after 3 to 4 starts labours hard.
Battery is good been checked out by Battery World (Specialists).
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Jughead.
Ur probably still in bed lucky sod. It's 930 here.
Ran side stand loop, 4 new relays ignition on - no spark.
Took side stand loop out - ignition on again - no spark.
Didn't check fuel as I would say it is geeting through - I can smell it.
I goota attend to some other matters so by the time I get back u should be up and about. FARK.
OK.
Remove the front engine cover and check to see whether the alternator pulley (the one you removed to replace the HALL sensor) is still in place. Unfortunately that bolt is not a left hand thread and will tend to unscrew itself if not tightened properly, leaving you without the pulse for the coils.
Did you lock the motor when you tightened the bolt?
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No didn't lock the motor. Didn't think I would have to.
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Ah!
My bet is that it has unscrewed itself, leaving you screwed! ;D
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Be as close as I have gotten in a long time OK I'll go and pull cover and get back to you.
Is their a locking pin port in the front of the motor - I know there's one at the flywheel.
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U were right I'm screwed it came undone - I'll locktite the sucker this time.
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Be as close as I have gotten in a long time OK I'll go and pull cover and get back to you.
Is their a locking pin port in the front of the motor - I know there's one at the flywheel.
No, no locking port on the front. Only on the flywheel.
Glad you came right. Now go ride the bike! ;D
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It lives. I'll wait half for the locktite to go off.
Jug if u or Wayne C are ever over here in Brisbane Qld Australia let me know I'll buy you a beer and you can borrow one of my bikes to ride.
Thanks muchly for your help.
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[emoji106]
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Ah a bloody Queenslander causing problems, should have known ;D, Pleased you have it sorted, I may have further info on your model lying round if you want it, not for the forum here though so get hold of my via my web site f650gs.crossroadz.com.au, contact form is in the about section
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The Maroons rule mate.
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Jughead so you understand the Oz humour
Maroons are footballers with a touch of the sun who dress in dark pink and play an irrelevant Australian form of football better known as thugby, the opposing team from the only southern state silly enough to like thugby dress in blue which is probably a good idea as they have been perennial losers for the last decade or so. There are even annual bets between the political leaders of these States as to whose team is the biggest bunch of thugs. ;D ;D
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Couldn't have said it better. Could be worse though could be AFL. ;D ;D ;D
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Jughead so you understand the Oz humour
Maroons are footballers with a touch of the sun who dress in dark pink and play an irrelevant Australian form of football better known as thugby, the opposing team from the only southern state silly enough to like thugby dress in blue which is probably a good idea as they have been perennial losers for the last decade or so. There are even annual bets between the political leaders of these States as to whose team is the biggest bunch of thugs. ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D
Yip, got that one. My ex BIL is in Oz and was always on about the Maroons.
You, however, have such a nice way with words!! ;D
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I was fortunate not to have serious problems on my bikes, the GS911 only used for minors and service functions.
But this is a great story. Well done to the expert contributors. Really enjoyed seeing so much combined knowledge and experience in action.
:) :) :) :)
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Skim.
The guys were brilliant and their efforts greatly appreciated. :) :)