Author Topic: Integral ABS 2 - CAN "Power Supply to Pump motor faulty"  (Read 30813 times)

malmac

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Re: Integral ABS 2 - CAN "Power Supply to Pump motor faulty"
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2014, 04:59:10 AM »
Jughead

Thank you for your reply.

There are lots of things I don't understand and at least some of them relate to this ABS unit.

If the fluid gets flushed out when the brake fluid is changed how come, now I have my pump partially disassembled, when I pour brake fluid into the intake side of the pump and for that either side of the pump, and I then actuate the pump pins by hand, the brake fluid does not rise or fall, suggesting that the pump is only connected to the brake line when a solenoid is activated.

I therefore am assuming that either the solenoid that is supposed to remain open at its not powered position is stuck shut, or there is some other explanation that you may know.

Also at present I am assuming that the only time the pump is activated is either when the respective wheel locks up and the pump takes part in the anti locking process or when the bike is started and the initialisation process takes place (but this is just wishful thinking).

Any help understanding the workings of this system would be appreciated.


Mal

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Re: Integral ABS 2 - CAN "Power Supply to Pump motor faulty"
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2014, 07:45:07 AM »
Hi Mal

As stated in my previous post, the iABS and iABS pumps operate differently.

As I understand it from dismantling an iABS2 pump, it does not actually pump fluid.  The 2 pins that are actuated by the motor cam are the ends of valves that merely interrupt and release the pressure in the two circuits when activated, in this way alternately preventing the wheels from locking up.  I will see whether I still have the remains of the dismantled unit to show what I am referring to.

If you had to remove the front calliper pipe the fluid would(should) flow freely from the reservoir, through the pump, and out the end of the pipe until the reservoir and pump is empty.

The iABS (Servo Assisted) pumps are different in that they actually pump fluid to assist with braking, and at the same time shut off when wheel speed differences are detected.  Disconnecting the calliper pipe does not empty the reservoir.

malmac

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Re: Integral ABS 2 - CAN "Power Supply to Pump motor faulty"
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2014, 08:22:19 AM »
Hi Jughead

It is always fascinating to find out one has made a major assumption which completely undermines a correct understanding of the situation.
I did assume this was a pumping device.

So what are all those solenoids doing?

I Haven't pulled the pump/aluminium block apart to try and understand this but I think I will as soon as I have some more time.

Obviously would appreciate any light you can throw on the matter.



Mal

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Re: Integral ABS 2 - CAN "Power Supply to Pump motor faulty"
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2014, 10:31:44 AM »
Ok Malmac, found the valve.

The first pic is the complete valve, the end of which is indicated by the arrows in your pic above.

The second pic is the valve which has been dismantled.

The third pic is a closed-up of the shuttle part of the valve.  The 2 bypass holes can be clearly seen.

mike d

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Re: Integral ABS 2 - CAN "Power Supply to Pump motor faulty"
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2014, 11:24:55 AM »
Good Photo's!

Any experience of those small filters getting clogged and thus causing ABS failure?

MIke

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Re: Integral ABS 2 - CAN "Power Supply to Pump motor faulty"
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2014, 11:27:53 AM »
No, as long as the fluid id replaced at the regular intervals.

I replace fluid with every 10 000km service or annually.

malmac

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Re: Integral ABS 2 - CAN "Power Supply to Pump motor faulty"
« Reply #36 on: March 06, 2014, 10:39:10 AM »
Jughead

Your willingness to share information is a great asset to myself and others on the forum.

My project to date is -

I have fitted my brand new ABS unit.

Have bled both front and rear brake circuits - BUT still not happy I have all the air out of the front circuit.

I have yet to dismantle my pump and see why it has frozen up.

I note your advice about changing the brake fluid often - I was doing it every two years but it will now become an annual event.

Will keep everyone updated on anything I learn.


Mal
Australia

Jughead

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Re: Integral ABS 2 - CAN "Power Supply to Pump motor faulty"
« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2014, 10:57:02 AM »
Hi Mal

Bleeding the front calipers can be a real PITA when they get air in them.

Try this:

Once you have bled the system in the normal way, remove the callipers from the forks and allow them to dangle free.

Remove the brake pads, or at least one of them.  You are going to want the piston in the calliper to be pushed out as far as is possible without it dropping out of the calliper.  Stop them from falling out with a suitable spacer.  One pad usually does the trick.

Exercise the brake lever and push the pistons out as far as they will go.  Holding the calliper at about a 60deg angle with the bleed nipple uppermost, open the bleed nipple and slowly force first the lower piston back into the calliper.  Once it is all the way in, force the upper piston back in as well.  You will possibly find a lot of air coming out.  Repeat with the other calliper.

Replace the pads, bolt the callipers back in place and refill the brake fluid reservoirs as you pump the lever to get the pistons out to their normal position again.

Hope this makes sense.  Will try to get some pics for you that will make it easier to understand.

Jughead

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Re: Integral ABS 2 - CAN "Power Supply to Pump motor faulty"
« Reply #38 on: March 06, 2014, 12:09:27 PM »
OK, here is a bit of a crude drawing to show what I am talking about.

Brake fluid is forced into chambers "A" and "B".  While the upper chamber has 2 holes, one for fluid and one for air, the lower chamber only has 1.  So fluid enters the chamber following the blue arrows, but the air trying to follow the yellow arrows gets trapped in chamber "A".

Tilting the calliper (as in the second pic) and forcing the piston back, forces the air out of the chamber.

malmac

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Re: Integral ABS 2 - CAN "Power Supply to Pump motor faulty"
« Reply #39 on: March 06, 2014, 01:18:47 PM »
Jughead

You seem to be onto something here. I will experiment with this and let you know how I get on.

I have been focussed on the ABS unit - the calipers may well be more than half the problem.


Thanks again.


mal

Joe-T

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Re: Integral ABS 2 - CAN "Power Supply to Pump motor faulty"
« Reply #40 on: April 26, 2018, 12:44:06 AM »
OK, here is a bit of a crude drawing to show what I am talking about.

Brake fluid is forced into chambers "A" and "B".  While the upper chamber has 2 holes, one for fluid and one for air, the lower chamber only has 1.  So fluid enters the chamber following the blue arrows, but the air trying to follow the yellow arrows gets trapped in chamber "A".

Tilting the calliper (as in the second pic) and forcing the piston back, forces the air out of the chamber.

Hello Jughead,
thanks for sharing your knowledge. Although not quite a recent posting I hope you would read this.

As the R1200GS calipers do have four pistons I actually can't make 100% sense of your schematic drawing. To me this looks like a two piston caliper and I can't get this fit with my 4 piston caliper.
Mentioned 60 degree tilting may work for the outer pistons but it's sub-optimal for the inside pistons. (Without dismanteling the caliper I dont actually know which internal channels exist.)

Would you be able to bring some light onto this sub-topic.

Thanks, Joe-7

Jughead

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Re: Integral ABS 2 - CAN "Power Supply to Pump motor faulty"
« Reply #41 on: April 26, 2018, 07:18:07 AM »
Hi Joe-7, and welcome.

The schematic I posted is just that, a schematic to illustrate where the air is trapped and how to resolve the issue.  By no means is it an accurate drawing of the R1200GS caliper.  It is in fact roughly only half of the caliper but the same principals apply.

Be that as it may, take the schematic and make a mirror image of it, then put my schematic and the mirror image together and you have roughly what the R1200GS caliper looks like, with the exception of the brake pipe and bleed nipple.  Once again, not 100% accurate in every detail.

What I suggest is the following:

Remove the caliper from the fork and remove the brake pads.  Insert a wooden block in place of the brake pads that will allow the pistons enough travel without falling out altogether.

Fill the reservoir with new clean brake fluid.  Activate the front brake lever, pushing fluid to the pistons to the point where they are making contact with the wooden block.  Open the bleed nipple and starting from the lower piston furthest away from the bleed nipple, tilt the caliper as illustrated for the relevant side, and push the piston back into the bore as far as it will go.  Now do the same with the piston above it.  Repeat with the 2 pistons on the side with the nipple, once again first the lower one, then the one closest to the nipple.  Close the nipple.

Repeat this process for as many times as it takes for you to be able to push the pistons back without any air escaping from the bleed nipple.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 07:22:31 AM by Jughead »

Joe-T

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Re: Integral ABS 2 - CAN "Power Supply to Pump motor faulty"
« Reply #42 on: April 26, 2018, 02:43:40 PM »
Thanks Jughead for this clarification!

I think I've got it now. So the tilting direction changes when pushing the inside or outside pistons back in.

Joe-7

P.S.
One word of a warning to anyone working on this:

While pushing the pistons back in watch out for the other 3 pistons which tend to get pushed out during this step. I accidentally got one piston far enough to fall out. ... Now I definitely had enough air in the system ...
It may help to use two smaller wooden blocks - one between the lower - one between the upper pistons to reduce this risk. Leave the upper block in place while starting to push the lower pistons back in.